it's the minority's role to convince the majority to accept their values. This dynamic is the only guarantee to maintain human rights

Investir Paralelos Manifesta Which definition of democracy comes closer to yours?

Mohamed Abdallah in it's simplest form..applying the majority's point of view:) 

Investir Paralelos Manifesta aren´t you afraid to the fact that masses are quite easy to manipulate?

Mohamed Abdallah so it's the minority role to convince or force the majority to accept their values.This dynamics (that will never stop) is the only guarantee to maintain human rights

je crois qu'on a une overdose de politique chez nous partout on parle que du politique

inVESTIR:  During last year, deep changes occured in some countries in North Africa. How did those transformations affect the everyday dialogue between generations, for instance in familiy meetings? Do people speak more openly regarding to political matters, or you don´t notice any difference in this aspect? Or is it the other way around? And between people of your same age?

Alaedinne: alors on parle plus ouvertement sur des sujets politiques sans problème déjà je crois qu'on a une overdose de politique chez nous partout on parle que du politique :)

The game is the same and the players are the same / few are the people who are extremists / how to say that without making a crisis about it

Investir Paralelos Manifesta
(...)
and how is life in Lebanon?

Andrea

   

its the same as it was since 1975 or even past that
the game is the same and the players are the same
nothing changes in this country except the dates
do u get what i mean?

(....)

its always the same people to vote for
and as for me i'm apolitical, cz they are all liers, and all of them take adventage from there post
and if and god forbids there is a person that works for the country and is not in a partie they push his buttons and oppose to his ideas and projects and push him to resign
so that's lebanon's political image( from my point of view)
but on the bright side tourism here is amazing

(....)

Andrea
its a great place to be but it has his inside issues

(...)
 
Investir Paralelos Manifesta 
are christian respectful with muslims and the other way around? or do you have conflicts because of that?

Andrea
as for me i dont see the diffrence i work with people as persons, and i respect the person as for who he is
we dont have fight because of religion here
never
but we have our differences in life style and ideas... few are the people who are extremist
 
Investir Paralelos Manifesta
yes
the problems come with the extrems...
 
Andrea 
but u feel even if nothing happens, that there is underlying (i dont wanna say hate) in people of both sides, even if it doesnt show
 
Investir Paralelos Manifesta
really?
since always or in the last time?   
 
Andrea
always, ever since the civil war
back in 75
 
Investir Paralelos Manifest
but where do you feel it? between co-workers, in the media,     between friends?
 
Andrea
how to say that without making a crisit abt it            
hmmmmm
ok thats the most deplomatic way to say it
 
Investir Paralelos Manifesta
i know it is a hard matter
 
Andrea
regions are divided (if its not said out loud, everyone know it) between christains and muslims, of course there are few christains that lives among muslims and the other way aroud
and they live normally no feud or so
but u feel that there is a difference
i hope u could come and see what i mean
cz it hard to explain it, without making lebanon sounds like a unstable or close to civil war area    

Democracy was not applied by the push of a button in Europe too, it took a few hundred years

Investir Paralelos Manifesta

do you think (democracy) is the best system to organize society?

Mohamed Abdallah

there is no such thing as 'end of history'

it depends

everysociety has it's own problems

one have to push left left

till it became too lefty

and then push towards right

it's so dynamic

so there is dynamic between economy , social siences and time:)

Investir Paralelos Manifesta

but the idea of democracy comes from a very "western" context

I mean, it is associated with a concrete period (the industrial revolution) and with concrete power forces (burgoise)

Mohamed Abdallah

i know:)

where is the contradiction?

Investir Paralelos Manifesta

what happens when this model is applied to other regions that dont have the same tradition?

Mohamed Abdallah

well

it was applied already in s.america

 

Investir Paralelos Manifesta

after a big massacre

of colonization

Mohamed Abdallah

yeah

and it was never 'completed'

democracy was not applied by the push of a button in europe too

it took a few hundred years:)

the brotherhood are quite neo liberal economicaly but they don't have a renaissance project apart from romantic talks / they still believe that we are paid by the west to protest

Investir Paralelos Manifesta

so, which is your biggest problem with the ismalmists?

Mohamed Abdallah

me?

they don't have a project

Investir Paralelos Manifesta

no?

are you sure?

Mohamed Abdallah

they think they do

Investir Paralelos Manifesta

and why do you think they dont?

Mohamed Abdallah

I was saying

they don't have a real project

the ikhwan

the brotherhood

are quite neo liberal economicaly

but they don't have a renaissance project

apart from romantic talks

Investir Paralelos Manifesta

renaisance project? this sounds very romantic!

Mohamed Abdallah

hehe

i mean a real project:)

they don't have a sustainable solutions for the country problems:)

apart from charity

Investir Paralelos Manifesta

ok, which would be the first decission you would take if you were in the power?

Mohamed Abdallah

that's quite a hard querstion

re visiting/revising salaries of the ministers consultants

there is a lto of waste

in egypt ledger

according to some economists

24 milliar egyptian pounds each year

is paid to "consultants"

and "ministers"

this can do a levrage to the ledger

and make an economic boost

here it's a poor country ,

and it is REALLY corrupted

people does not even go to tehir jobs

and get paid like 100,000L.E month

but if u insist

there is one more decision

desolving

annuling the ministry of media

this tycon that controls people minds with official state point of view

Investir Paralelos Manifesta

name me one example

Mohamed Abdallah

one example of what?

Investir Paralelos Manifesta

an example of how people´s minds are controlled

Mohamed Abdallah

they still believe that we r paid by the west to protest

The first volunteers in Berlin :)

they don't represent anything. They use the religion to brain-wash people in order to win in the elections

YOUR COUNTRY´S POLITICAL MAP: Could you please describe in few words which are the groups of power in your country? Which of them are new? In which aspects do they represent you? In which not?

Fatma Hendawy

(...)

Currently, the two major political parties are Islamic ( Muslim Brotherhood and Salafis ), Politically - for me - the two are big failures to Egypt not because of their Islamic look or way of thinking but because of their week decisions with the Government and the SCAF. also, they together form more than 50% of the parliament and they are still weak to face the SCAF or judge the previous dictator president. I would describe the Egyptian political map now as a paralyses of democracy and a fake choice done by politically ignorant Egyptians. Unfortunately both of them are not new, they were in prison but this is the first time they form the majority in the political scene. For me, they don't represent anything but using the religion to brain wash people's mind in order to win in the elections but after that they appeared to know nothing but their concern to control the political scene. There is also the liberal party but they are still weak because they are not supported by the majority in Egypt.

democracy is the rule of the people, and it can only work when these people are well educated

Investir Paralelos Manifesta

Do you think democracy is the best system to organize a society? Are the countries in North Africa heading to build a democracy? Why/why not?


Mahmoud Mabrouk
Yes democracy is the best known system. As for if the north african countries are heading toward it, I think they are, but in different paces: democracy is the rule of the people, and it can only work when these people are well educated. Unfortunately, the level of education varies between north african countries, some like Tunisia have a high percentage (although much less that first word countries), and other like Mouritania have a 50% illiteracy rate.

(...)

I don't mean by education only civil right or human rights. For example, a teenager can know well enough his rights but he will behave in a wrong manner much of the time.
Education is a general concept, an educated person in my view would have a sufficient knowledge on the world, some general knowledge about the history, the economy ...
The knowledge you would expect of a person who finished high school in a first world country with a good educational system. This kind of person is able to make choices in election on who will rule him taking into account the real challenges and problems of the country in question and the solutions proposed by the candidates, he will not make his choices over emotional (religion, faux-moral problems ..), gossip or tribal/regional matters.
He will be able also to make changes and be active in the public life, not just a passive voter each 5 years.
Of course, the picture I paint in these lines is quite idealistic, and even in developed countries like the US, election results seems to be influenced by faux-problems like marriage of the homosexuals or abortion while ignoring the meaningful challenges and problems, economical or military.
Now, how to educate the people to be in this picture is another question.

after the revolution you can freely talk about politics with no minimum fear! / je crois qu'on a une overdose de politique chez nous partout on parle que de politique

Investir Paralelos Manifesta

During last year, deep changes occured in some countries in North Africa. How did those transformations affect the everyday dialogue between generations, for instance in familiy meetings? Do people speak more openly regarding to political matters, or you don´t notice any difference in this aspect? Or is it the other way around? And between people of your same age?

Fatma Hendawy
We talk about politics almost everyday ,, in Family meetings its a bit hard because of the age difference. We speak very openly about politics, you can hear people in the streets, buses, taxis, etc. talking about the upcoming presidential elections and the MB party, even couples walking by the sea here in Alexandria do the same ! Its more flexible when it comes to discussions with the same age as Egypt is mainly divided to age eras, for example: its hard for youth in 20's to convince old people (50 and older) with a modern political thinking, their targets are totally different and so their political thoughts are so different. Also it depends on the educational and intellectual level of those who participate in political dialogues.

Investir Paralelos Manifesta
thanks fatma, what about in comparison with before the social upheavals?

Fatma Hendawy

No, people considered political dialogues a Security case which they can go to prison for just mentioning their personal opinions, people were afraid from National Security agents who were everywhere (at work, cafes, shops, etc.) so after the revolution you can freely talk about politics with no minimum fear !

Chouiref Alaedinne

alors on parle plus ouvertement sur des sujets politiques sans problème déjà je crois qu'on a une overdose de politique chez nous partout on parle que du politique :)

our revolution is incomplete / Those who represent me are those who are still fighting, not those who are making deals for taking over the parliament

Investir Paralelos Manifesta

Good afternoon, dear friends! Here we go with a new subject of discussion. We are looking forward to read your comments!

YOUR COUNTRY´S POLITICAL MAP: Could you please describe in few words which are the groups of power in your country? Which of them are new? In which aspects do they represent you? In which not?


Rana Elh

Groups of power in my country are soon to be vanished, ''SCAF, Islamists'' don't represent me nor my exceptions, none of them are new because our revolution is incomplete. The power is within people, The power is in the streets still; Those who represent me and my expectations are those who are still fighting in front lines for ''bread, freedom, & social equality'' not those who are making deals for taking over the parliament. :)

first we have to focus on making people understand what Democracy is

Investir Paralelos Manifesta

Dear friends, here we post our second question!  Feel free to write your comments here! And here it goes:

 

Do you think democracy is the best system to organize a society?  Are the countries in North Africa heading to build a democracy? Why/why not?

 

Rasha O Haffar  

 

As for what I believe, Yes, I think Democracy is the best way in organizing a society. But the question remains; in How this democracy will be used ?! For, some leaders misuse it in the name of freedom. I believe that the first purpose of using Democracy in a society is to improve that certain place. To give the people what they need starting from providing them with a better standard of living, to giving them the freedom they need to reach a higher level among other communities. I believe that Democracy if used in its right context; which means giving the people the right to rule, make choices and changes in their society, that will lead North Africa to a better future. But, first we have to focus on making people understand what Democracy is, because a lot are getting the wrong meaning of it. North Africans have started their path towards democratic societies, and they should keep on holding on to what they believe in order to stop those who want to destroy what have been built in the last decade.

my imagination about democracy is still blurry, defining democracy in an Egyptian context now is a kind of a dream / Democracy is about giving equal chances to everyone to take their creativity and uniqueness to the top

Fatma Hendawy on the wall of Investir Paralelos Manifesta (about democracy)
 
Well, this is a hard question to answer now. Thinking as an Egyptian citizen who knows the people of its country, my imagination about democracy is still blurry, defining democracy in an Egyptian context now is a kind of a dream! My imagination about democracy in Egypt will look like this quote I extracted, a very far away dream! But I do believe that dreams were created to be achieved. Maybe I can tell you which democracy's paradigm I prefer and I wish that it would be applied in Egypt one day, "the Swiss paradigm" for democracy, although they spent 200 years to reach this level of democracy and they still have negatives but in my point of view it is enough for the moment. Simply, democracy isn't a word that I can easily define or even put an imagination for. But I would rather dream about it and say: Democracy should be a global/universal idea, I will keep dreaming of this day when I see no borders between countries, when I see the whole world as a one big country where the citizens choose freely where to live, which culture is more suitable to their personality, which environment they feel more adaptable in, which place they can be more productive, creative and successful, etc. If I decided one day to change my whole life, my work, my language, my home, etc I wish to do this freely with no obligations or fear from my passport who states that I am an Arab Egyptian Muslim ! Democracy is about having equal chances for everyone in the whole world to live as free humans in the place they choose leaving behind the problematic issues of gender, religion, culture and language. Democracy is about giving equal chances to everyone to take their creativity and uniqueness to the top with no preferred identity or nationality ! Democracy is the right to live anywhere in the world as a human with dignity !

When I read this word (Democracy) I hear immediately the cheering among demonstrations, I smell the smoke of tear gas and I see bars of a cell.

HusSam Hilali on the wall of Investir Paralelos Manifesta

Democracy is not just to build a multi-party system, or giving people the right to elect and choose their leaders. It's the free space to discuss views for the best interest and to promote respect among the various social levels.

Investir Paralelos Manifesta
do you see this happening in any country? If yes, in which one(s)?

HusSam Hilali
Utopia :(

When I read this word (Democracy) I hear immediately the cheering among demonstrations, I smell the smoke of tear gas, and I see bars of a cell. This is my experience in democracy in real because I'm a Sudanese citizen (and also lives in Egypt)

Democracy is so fluid ;)

Mohamed Abdallah
Democracy is so fluid ;)  don't you think so? there is no such thing as a single definition of democracy

For us democracy is a mean, not a goal itself

Investir Paralelos Manifesta 

So, my dearest.... the time has come. Here we are with our first question...

What do you understand under democracy? All of us more or less associate democracy to one concept, but try to figure it out how should it look like in the everyday life. When you think on democracy, what are you exactly thinking about? Are you thinking on a particular country?

Remember, you can comment it on our wall, through chat or per message. Of course, we prefer on the wall ;-)
Looking forward to hear from you!

Mahmoud Mabrouk

For us democracy is a mean not a goal itself. It's a mean for progress and social justice. Because only when the people choose and judge their leaders, will their wishes come true.

Investir Paralelos Manifesta  

whom do you mean with "us"? 

Mahmoud Mabrouk  

I would guess a part of the young "revolutionary" Arabs or at least Tunisians.